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Welcome to E-Coffee with Experts, an interview series where we discuss online marketing with the best minds in the business.
In this episode, Dawood chats with Daniel Matthews, Founder of SAM Sensei and Daniel Matthews Media.
Daniel talks in-depth about his approach to marketing in 2021 and the importance of a marketing strategist for any organization.
His interesting opinions about SEO approach, whitehat vs blackhat SEO. He also takes us through how to move a lead to a converted sales and efficient collaboration between sales and marketing teams and his thoughts about email marketing.
Lastly, he shares his thoughts about podcasts and their growing role in marketing.
Tune into this insightful conversation and stay tuned for the next cup of E -coffee with Experts!
The best thing for your remarketing is figuring out where your dream buyer is at that point.
Hello, Everyone. How’s it going? Today we have with us Daniel Matthews, Founder of SAM Sensei and Daniel Matthews Media. I’m excited to have somebody who is doing something other than running an agency and just doing SEO. It would be great if you introduce yourself to our viewers, and please tell us more about SAM Sensei.
My name is Daniel. Everything I pretty much do is marketing. I have the two companies you mentioned. One is Daniel Matthews Media. It’s a standard marketing, full-service agency. We manage everything you need to succeed online. From landing pages and ads, and SEO. On the other hand, I launched SAM Sensei two months ago. It’s more like a marketing consultancy that won’t cost you thousands of dollars.
I’ve been doing the agency for five years or so. When you work with enough companies, you start noticing similarities. You realize it’s all sort of the same thing- “I’m struggling with this”, “we can’t do that, and nothing’s happening” Questions build off that.
Regardless of company size, they all have the same problems. Even if the problems are slightly different, they’re all fundamental challenges. The fundamentals don’t change. It hasn’t changed since marketing started. I thought instead of competing with other marketing agencies because that’s what you will do.
There’s a little sliver of the pie in companies for their outsource solutions. There’s a huge gap between companies and marketing agencies or freelancers or whatever. Even actually in their own in-house marketing team, there’s a gap. That gap is a marketing strategist. It won’t cost them massive amounts of money but will get them the information they need on-demand and his roadmap. It’s not just a motivational speaker you’d hire. We do that. People need such little encouragement, you’d be really surprised.
But it’s road mapping. It’s actionable plans- “Here’s what you need, here we are”. “Let’s organize it and then you’re going to end up here. This is how we get there. So first focus on that. It’s really cool.”
They also get chat reviews, while they are executing. It’s all that you have fixed sessions with them. They get more than just fix sessions.
Exactly. It’s complete access. It is essentially unlimited access. They can instant chat. We can email, schedule phone calls. Even on the back end, I kind of mentioned this to you earlier. I really don’t like courses. It’s not my thing. On the back end, we have a resource library. Even passively, they could access our resources. Look at training and see how they can build offers or design a website. Things they can actually use and they’re not going to be sold at the end of them. . By the way, if you want the full thing that’s going to be $4,000. Swipe the card and you get the whole thing.
SAM Sensei also helps businesses streamline their sales process. You said that SAM Sensei came into the picture because you saw all these problems with businesses. So where do you see most businesses get it wrong and what does your process look like?
To briefly touch on the sales thing, we do offer sales support too. Sales is not really marketing and marketing is not really sales. There’s a separation. People do have a lot of sales problems. So we will coach you on that to get your sales stuff in order. All of that is fundamental to all the challenges you have is with that.
Everyone has different problems, right.? So this is not going to relate to every single person. But I think there are a couple of areas that I could definitely say, it is a massive problem with most people’s sales teams, regardless of size. I think most onboarding for new salespeople is horrific, or non-existent. I’ve done sales jobs. Their onboarding is like, “Welcome to the team, put a headset on, jump in and do it.” There were times where you’re on the phone, and they’re like, “Yeah, I do want that.” You were like, “Oh, okay. Now what? I think it’s a training thing and it’s too individualized.
It’s so heavily based on performance, like everything else means nothing. It’s too cut-throat. It’s not bad, there’s not enough support. If there is support, it’s really just like, “Hey, what are you doing? Did you make any sales yet? No. Okay.” It’s too much about the numbers, and it’s easily lost in there. Those are just some things I’ve seen lately.
Absolutely. I agree with you. A lot of people believe that they’ve hired a good sales team and then the magic will happen from the next day. I mean the person has to be good in sales. He has to be a good storyteller and good with people. But then at the end of the day, if he doesn’t understand your product, he will never be able to sell it. It can’t be like a straight line where you give him a script, and he just says that and sells at all. You need to invest time in their training, as well.
A lot of businesses think of that as an investment. You hire a salesperson, you have the overheads, and you have his salary. I remember I had an interview with a salesperson. He told me that he had not joined that company because in the interview, he thought as if the company or the employer was thinking of him as an ATM machine. They would just insert the card and at the end, he would just get out money. They were not interested in investing. A lot of things are needed before you actually see those results.
Yeah, and everyone wants to be a millionaire in like 30 days. So, it’s such a huge pressure to perform and nobody wants to put the time in you.
Just like blackhat SEO, right?
It’s funny. I don’t even know what that meant until a year and a half ago. If you just kept saying SEO, I would be like, “Yeah, I know SEO.” Do you white hat or black hat? I was like, “I like black hats more than white hat. They’re like, “No, you don’t have to do black hat.” Now, I know. I notice.
The SEO team that I have, which is three people. We follow all the Google, everything that needs to happen correctly. We only do that because Google’s too smart. We think we’re in charge, but we’re really not. Google’s sort of lets you think you are. If you just do SEO however you like to do it, you’re still going to end up in places that Google wants you to be anyways. You can kind of influence things to happen a bit. They’re just playing where they want you anyways.
Daniel, a lot of people struggle when they’re trying to do lead generation. Most think of buying leads because there are these services available in the market. What are your thoughts on buying leads or data?
You never know what you’re really going to get? It’s sort of worth doing. If you have a sales team and you need to feed them, then you’re going to buy a lot of data. But, you have to buy it, knowing that this is essentially public information. Every data provider on earth has the same data. There’s no more existing unused data. At some point, that data has been sold multiple times. It has generated off campaigns. They ran on Facebook a year ago based on something completely different than what you’re getting.
I’m starting a business, I bought a list of 100 plumbers, I’m gonna call them, it’s not worth it. You just wasted a couple of 100 bucks. If you have a big sales team, it might be worth it.
Things are so predictable with online marketing. It’s predictable, it’s scalable. You might as well invest the time in getting a system put where you can just do this yourself. The lead or the people that come into your business have that understanding and context of, “Oh, I opted in, because I’m looking for a financial advisor, and then I start talking to financial advising, incorporated.” It’s so much better.
The only thing with lead generation is, people, don’t know how to handle the leads. They think it’s all short-term, no one thinks long-term. It is a list building. It’s not e-commerce. It’s not like a click equals sales Lead generation is like the first starting point of your down the line, say like, we just hit our first million dollars type thing.
Absolutely. If you’re actually doing it yourself, even if you just get that email and you have a system where you can then nurture the lead, it comes one day. You’re basically nurturing the lead yourself, rather than just buying data from somewhere,
You need to buy data, though, if you have a sales team. The sales teams will still handle other channels that you get leads from. If you have a big team to feed, you’re going to have to buy a ton of data. At that caliber, it makes more sense. Even if you’re going to send out email campaigns, you have to buy some data. I don’t really recommend doing it this way, but people do. Thousands of emails per day!
Buying data doesn’t necessarily mean from a corporation or company. You can mine your own data. You can go through LinkedIn, there are tons of different ways to do it. It’s nothing I would recommend to someone as a strategy.
You don’t suggest sending out bulk emails. Is that because those are mass campaigns and you can’t customize them? Or is it the general idea of sending out cold emails to someone?
It’s just you end up getting better results by creating your own internal community. I reached out to you, or you reached out to us, because you know who we are and what we do. Maybe you’re not ready to buy now, but it started off. The context is the same throughout the way. Bulk email or cold email works too, but that’s like a pay-for-performance type thing. That’s why you have to do so many per day because most of it won’t work. If you do a lot of it, you’ll get some sort of results out of it. But, it’s super expensive. It’s predictable and you can’t forecast it.
There are so much better ways to do this by creating your own ecosystem, generating your own leads, getting people in. High-value content is a great way to do this. You have a better pure ecosystem of customers and leads.
If you have a large sales team, you don’t want to be paying them $30,000 a year, and they’re just sitting there. You’re going to have them a cold call and buy data for that. If you want to go knock on doors, that’s good, too. You should definitely do that.
It also depends on the way you do it. Sometimes what happens is people don’t have actual data. Even if they are running a campaign, they’re not getting results. Now, you have technology where if your data is pure, i.e., if you are actually getting exact emails and data of your actual target audience, you can create these customized templates where it doesn’t give a feel of a direct cold email.
If you don’t have a big team, and you can actually customize it, then it’s okay. There are templates and systems and technology available, where you can actually customize it for the person as well.
I’m not saying don’t do it, I wouldn’t recommend doing that as a longtime scalable strategy.
If you want to invest time to do that. It’s just gambling at that point. But it works.
It also depends on the industry. There are some industries where one particular strategy would work and there are some industries where people don’t even open their mailbox. How much value do you give to remarketing strategy? What is the best way of creating a remarketing funnel?
The reason why results don’t happen at the core is because everything is unorganized. There are tons of people out there and you can get in front of them instantly. The reason why no one’s following everything fully is that things are not organized correctly.
So to make the best remarketing funnel or campaign it’s like how to organize it. Does it make sense? Is it comprehendible? You want people to go from free users to paid users. What does that look like? Does it make sense? It’s probably unorganized. It is too confusing and not clear. You’re probably just hoping that they will just do that eventually. Maybe they want to, they just don’t see the difference. They’re like, “I’m getting everything out for free, why would I change?” We’re not doing a good job showing them that because it was not set up. It was not organized correctly. The best thing for your remarketing is figuring out where your dream buyer is at that point.
There are ways to do this. You basically target someone, like, “I’m going to target the wood and the wood is looking for a Toyota Corolla.” They’re not really ready to buy. I know this because they’re the kind of people I want to target and get involved with like five months before their lease is up. I want to make sure that I’m hooking them up with all the knowledge and I want to kick them. By the time they click on my ad and they go through my organized first intake funnel, I spit them out on the other end. I’m assuming because I’ve set this context up. They are nowhere and since they’re five months out from release, and I’ve designed it that way. I now know that they’re here, their files were released looking for a Toyota Corolla, and the context is they received X, Y& Z information. So when I retarget them, I know what they’ve seen now. I want to retarget them with information at that point. The retargeting now is going to meet them there and help guide them to another call to action, or another point I’m trying to get them to.
It’s like people think it’s an advertisement. Click, Sale, and then there’s a huge gap. Before they even get the sale, there are all these things they didn’t look at. You have to convince them their ad is to produce clicks, not sales. You got to produce a click, that’s convincing.
The next step is you want them to browse products, this is just an example. You have to convince them to do that. Then you have to convince them to put it in the cart, you have to convince them to click the next page and put the cart in, and all this stuff. You have to do this the entire way through.
You’re right. A lot of people when thinking of retargeting, they expect to get sales on day one on their landing page, as soon as they get a click right. There are services where, let’s say somebody is looking for an electrician, so he wants him now, where normally the sales cycle is long for a lot of businesses. If he saw your information, what would you show him after that? A lot of people bombard their visitors with lead-gen retargeting banners and it doesn’t work.
They’re just thinking your mindset is a shop, click purchase.. The best retargeting or marketing is when that matches the same temperature as your dream buyers. Here’s an example. Go on Google, literally type in any industry, any business, anything. Look at the ads that you’re going to see. My favorite is solar. You’re gonna see advertisements and they’re all going to sound the same. They’re all from different companies.
To get on the keyword solar, that’s expensive. They’re all expensive. They’re spending thousands of dollars to be there and compete against each other.
Here’s the funny thing. Companies want you to do a competitor analysis, it does absolutely nothing. They don’t even know what to do with it. Don’t even look at your competitors, just forget it.
So you look at the Google ads, and what you’ll find is they all sound the same. They’re all gonna say things like this. “Number one solar company.” “I’m in Orange County, California.” “Number one solar company in Orange County.” What they’re doing is they’re saying, “Hello, we’re spending $4,000 a month to just tell you that, we are a solar company.”
So if you know your dream buyer, you know what they’re looking for at that time, and there are more people shopping around there and are ready to buy now, then why not? Get them in your ecosystem early on, keep in communication and get your sales down the line. That’s going to happen more predictably, than just hoping someone’s going to purchase right now.
Imagine if you found out that people searching for those key terms that we find, they don’t even know what to do. They don’t want to call solar companies because they’re just gonna get pushed in a wall and get sold, and then they’re gonna get called a lot. Let’s just say they care about if their solar panels are made out of plastic, and that was a huge burning question. So to compete with your competitors, this is your competitor analysis. You made a Google ad that said, “Before you go solar, get this guide that will show you what solar panels have plastic in them.” Most likely you’ll win that click because that’s the temperature of where they are at. You can apply that ideology to literally everything
Absolutely. I told you we do a lot of SEO and link building is a part of it. So once we created a guide, where we explained our process. Anybody with decent knowledge of SEO could actually understand. It was a complete guide and anybody could actually implement it. That actually became the most successful lead generation resource for us at that time. People don’t want to do that themselves. That’s why they’re searching online.
We also know that they’re probably willing to try it before they put the money out themselves. So why don’t we just give it to them? Let them give it a go and they’re gonna go, “Oh, man, this isn’t working.” At that point, it’s been like 30 or 60 days, and we’re in contact with them. They’re going to realize this.
Absolutely. What are your thoughts on podcasts as a marketing strategy?
They’re great. Here are a couple things. This is why TikTok is so popular. TikTok is so good because you can’t make crappy videos. You can cut and edit. You can put music. Everything that you would normally spend 1000s of dollars on to do professionally, you can do it on your phone. It’s never been easier. You can add text, voiceover, and all this stuff. It’s guaranteed that your videos won’t be crappy. So you could say it’s like a content-producing machine.
The reason why YouTube is so great is because there are no filters. You don’t have 30-minute time slots. That’s why television now sucks. They have to put all this information in a 30-minute time frame and 10 minutes that is commercial. So it’s really 20 minutes. You could put a YouTube video up of relaxing music for 45 hours if you want it to. It’s insane. It’s unfiltered. It’s raw.
What we found out with YouTube, is people actually like long-form. Listen to a 4-hour Joe Rogan podcast.
People were like, “Noone has an extension span. They only want four seconds to win there.” That is partially true. It’s not really the full case.
When it comes to podcasts, it’s sort of something that came out at the wrong time. YouTube helped the podcasts become more successful because YouTube was the first place that long-form it became super successful. Podcasts are even easier to make than YouTube.
They have anchors you can go on and make podcasts and distribute everywhere. It’s so easy. You get a $20 microphone and then you’re good. Anyone can do this. You go to Canva, make your own little logos and stuff. It’s so simple. Coming up with a podcast using a marketing strategy is a great idea because first of all, it’s super easy. It’s fun. If you get in front of the right people, they can really enjoy it. They already consumed that kind of content like on YouTube and everything else. It’s so easy to do it.
By TikTok thing, you don’t have to get a sound engineer to make a podcast. You don’t need a movie production team to make these insane videos. Huge companies are paying these kids to actually shoot commercials on their cell phones using the TikTok app. Don’t you think they would go like we’re not spending 25,000 hours? Why don’t we open our own free TikTok account and figure it out ourselves, right? I think it’s great.
Well Daniel, thank you so much for your time. It was fun chatting with you. Hopefully, we’ll get you on our series again for more discussions.
I had a great time. I’m pumped up right now. There has to be a part two!
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